This episode, we welcome Janet Wend (Cornerstone Church, Lima Campus), Shelly Head (Shelly Head Ministries), Patrick Kamler (Westminster Christian Church), and Brad Taylor (Lima Community Church).
Topics:
1. The Role of the Holy Spirit
2. The Power of Prayer
3. How do we deal with church offenses?
Transcript
Bill Harris: (00:15)
Hello everyone. Welcome to life questions. I’m your host bill Harris. For the next half hour we will attempt to give you a scriptural insight and biblical perspective, two questions about life that you, our viewers have mailed to us. Now, we at 44 appreciate your respect for the Word of God which we share and so we have invited four local ministers to prayerfully consider and review the questions that you had provided to us. And they are here with some answers. So I want you to meet them right now. First of all, we have Pastor Patrick Kamler of Westminster Christian Church. He is certainly no stranger to us here at TV-44 as our producer and anchor of the Sports Report. Next we have Pastor Brad Taylor of the Lima community Church followed by Shelly Head who is itinerary minister, who travels but is also located near Wooster, Ohio. And rounding out our panel we have Pastor Janet Wende of the cornerstone church in Lima, Ohio. Happy to have you all with us today.
(01:16)
Thank you, Glad to be here.
Bill Harris: (01:17)
We’ve gotten some very interesting questions here for our discussion today, and I’d like to lead off with the role of the Holy Spirit. What do we view as the role of the Holy Spirit in these last times considering the fact first, that in the old Testament, the only ones who really had the Holy spirit were like Kings or profits or priests. Now he dwells, dwells within sight of each of us. So what does this role in us? What do you think?
Patrick Kamler: (01:49)
Well, yeah, I think the Holy Spirit really works as you know, Jesus, refers to him as the helper, as the counselor, the one who will, you’ll come and speak for you. If you have situations where maybe you don’t know what to say or your human wisdom will, will fail you, which we’ve, we’ve all kind of had those experiences probably every week on Sunday. We might have those time for it where that fails us. But one thing that I noticed, and I’ve, I’ve read this story so many times, and I’m always encouraged by it, is if you look at the disciples, the night Jesus was, was arrested and he was crucified. Like they, they ran for the Hills. Peter denied them. They all were, were cowering. They were all afraid of what the authorities were going to do to them. And then Jesus comes, he ministers to them, he, he, he’s with them for another 40 days and then Pentecost happens or he goes back up to heaven.
Patrick Kamler: (02:38)
Pentecost happens. Then the Holy spirit comes upon them and all of a sudden these guys are not afraid anymore. They’re not cowards anymore. They go out and they preach boldly. They don’t, they don’t care who’s going to arrest him. They don’t care. He’s going to throw them in the prison. They say, we have news about Jesus Christ. He is risen. You killed him and now you better say you’re sorry. Going along with that. So, but it’s that. It’s, it’s the Holy spirit that activates that. That kinda turns us from, you know, we might have good scriptural knowledge and we might, you know, be moral people or whatever that may be to really being equipped with what God has called us to do when whatever, um, whatever vein that takes, whatever, however that manifests in our lives.
Bill Harris: (03:19)
Okay. Very good.
Shelly Head: (03:21)
I also think of Holy Spirit, as Comforter, Comforter. And so there’s times, yeah, it’s times where angst and worry we talked about in another episode, um, that the Comforter, the Holy spirit draws near and there’s that nearness that closeness that, that God is Holy spirit comes and brings himself to us. Yeah, absolutely.
Brad Taylor: (03:44)
I think there are some profound, um, realities from scripture that we, that we just ought to be aware of, you know, truths that continue to, to hold true. So you referenced the old Testament and you referenced the day of Pentecost. And I think these are, um, you know, from an old Testament perspective, sometimes we forget that the Holy spirit was present at creation. You know, the spirit hovered at over the waters and the chaos and the spirit is not, uh, even though something changed at Pentecost, something different happened there that wasn’t the, the introduction of the Holy spirit, the Holy spirit. And I know you, you didn’t mean to imply that, but the, the reality that, um, you know, when Jesus left earth, he said that he was going to send one that would make it better. And um, you know, to, to think that, that for those disciples to even be able to conceive of something that could have been better than being with Jesus, and yet that’s the same spirit that dwells with us today that gives us access to that power that, you know, awakened something in us that could not otherwise be awakened.
Janet Wende: (04:49)
When you think when Jesus was on the earth, if he was at your house or your house, he couldn’t be at my house. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is with all of us, which each and every one of us, and I love how the Bible tells us that he’s the one that’s going to lead us into all truth. He’s our teacher, he’s our leader. He’s our God. He, he is the one that is going to, to direct us. And, um, and, and so he’s, he’s only gonna tell us the things that he is shown. And I just love that. I love that, that God said, I’m empowering you. I’m giving you the power to live out the life and the destiny and the purpose that I’ve called you to live. I’m not leaving you powerless. I’m giving you the power in the person of the Holy Spirit to be able to do that.
Brad Taylor: (05:31)
You know, one of the things I appreciate just about the conversation we’re having is that we, we are acknowledging together that the Holy Spirit is a person. We had a series recently at our church on the Holy Spirit. And, um, that was really the foundational truth that we wanted to establish was that the Holy Spirit is not, um, uh, some like power to be accessed or it’s not something that you like can pop the top and pour some out of, but the Spirit is a person. This is one of the persons of the Trinity.
Patrick Kamler: (06:00)
That’s right.
(06:01)
Yeah.
Brad Taylor: (06:01)
And so for us to refer to the Holy Spirit as a person I think is appropriate biblically. And I think there’s an element of this, and this should get lost in the conversation because we all can kind of come from a, from a background, from a faith tradition where we recognize kind of the power and the influence of the Holy spirit in our ministries in our lives.
Patrick Kamler: (06:18)
But there are those who don’t recognize that for whatever reason, who don’t see that as a, as a reality. You know, there’s a, there’s a playbook, there’s a script that this is what I do on this particular Sunday and I don’t deviate from that. And I say that the Holy Spirit can’t be present in a lot of that stuff as well. But I think there’s an element of that too that we should acknowledge that we were talking about the Holy Spirit active, vibrate in our lives. Like this is just the way it is, but there are probably folks who are watching at home. There might be other pastors even that are hearing that maybe for the first time I’m thinking, ah, I don’t know if that’s a reality in my life. Maybe you don’t even necessarily agree with that. So it’s interesting to kind of see the different viewpoints that people take with that. And, and I hope that this isn’t the first time that you’re hearing about the Holy Spirit and being active in our lives. And I think there’s a, there’s a balance to be, there’s a tension to work through between where do I let the Spirit guide or where does the Spirit guide me versus kind of where does my own decision making process kind of come into that. And I think there’s a tension there that is different probably for each of us, depending on the situation, depending on what we’re doing.
Bill Harris: (07:29)
Yeah. You know, the Bible makes a clear distinction too, between walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit. And I have found that we can maintain it. We tried to, we can maintain the presence of God in our lives by walking in his Spirit. And so the other day I rearranged my mission statement to put in there, that my quality of life is directly linked to the quality time that I spend in his presence. And um, I’m finding that’s a big comfort for me cause you’re not, as, you get so busy in everyday life, sometimes your mind isn’t on him, but then maybe you offer just a quick prayer or to thank you Lord, I love you Lord. Help me here and then continue what you’re doing and, and it adds quality to your life because he hears us.
Patrick Kamler: (08:18)
The Lord, deal with this traffic jam.
Bill Harris: (08:22)
Yes, go ahead.
Janet Wende: (08:25)
I’m sorry to say even that so many times I think people don’t even know it’s happening because it’s just, it’s that inner witness on the inside of you that, you know, maybe you’re to do something or not to do something or say something or not say something or go here or go there or feel led to go a certain way, you know? And, and then you find out a reason why later. So just becoming sensitive to him leading, you know, turn to the left or turn to the right. I’ll say this is the way walk in it.
Bill Harris: (08:54)
GPS system.
Janet Wende: (08:54)
Exactly. Well you know what, speaking of that, it was fascinating. One time I was on a business trip, we were on a plane and when I get on a plane, I like to think that when I look out the window, if I see clouds, I like to envision that the pilots just have perfect sight. I don’t know why I just like to envision that, but we were on this small plane and on the way up to this meeting it was perfectly blue sky, just beautiful. On the way back, we were in a small plane, there were just a few seats and I could see straight through to see exactly what the pilots were seeing. And we flew right into a cloud bank and I will never forget hearing God say to me that, um, look at what the pilots are doing. And they were not flying the plane by looking out the window. There wasn’t anything they could see. They were looking at the radar box. They were looking at that and they were flying the plane by that and it was like, that’s who I am to you. I’m, I’m the Holy Spirit’s like a radar on the inside of you to direct you, to lead you, to guide you. We don’t know the future. We don’t know what’s ahead. We don’t know. But he does and it’s always safe to follow him. I want to do peace
Bill Harris: (10:05)
and I guess to it in the final analysis we think that the, the Holy Spirit has resurrection power cause I was, I was preaching a funeral for my late cousin just last week and I mentioned how that on, on the resurrection day in the rapture that the same Spirit that resurrected Jesus will resurrect her and many others who have gone on before. Isn’t it nice to know that out of all the works of the Holy Spirit, he also resurrects from the dead. It’s an incredible and the rapture is something that I don’t know where he went or something I really look forward to. I like to be on this side. Those among those that are alive. Of course, we never know how that’s going to work out, but in any event, um, we’re close, we’re, we’re, we’re close to a break time right now. Why do we take this break right now and we’ll come back and we’ve got some other things that we’ve got some other goodies in our bag here to talk about and we’ll be back to talk about those right after this.
Jennifer Beck: (11:09)
Don’t go away. There’s still a lot more discussion to come on this episode of life questions, but first do you have a question for a future show? Email it to life questions@wtlw.com or call us (419) 339-4444 you can also suggest pastors you feel would be a good fit for our panel. Again, send your question, ideas and pass your suggestions to life questions@wtlw.com now back to the discussion
Music: (11:40)
[inaudible].
Bill Harris: (11:40)
All right, we’re back in now. Another very special question that has come up and it really deals with one of the subjects. That is one of my favorites. And that is the power of prayer, the power of prayer. There’s an old saying that there’s no distance in prayer. I just, I love the quote there. What do you think about the power of prayer? Let’s, let’s talk about its uses and examples of power and play or that kind of thing.
Shelly Head: (12:01)
I think about Jesus in John like 14 through 16. I think talk so much about hearing the voice of the Father and I only do what the Father tells me to do. Well how does he hear that voice? And it has time, spending time, spending time listening to the Lord. And I think in our culture, or at least things I’ve seen, prayer has become some times, um, what I want, God, I want you to do this and I want you to do that. And that’s not necessarily all inherently bad, but I think for the most part, prayer is to change me. Prayer is to open my heart, to help me to submit to him, to his will. And so, um, yeah, there’s great power in prayer cause it’s gonna conform me more and more into the likeness of Jesus.
(12:47)
Excellent.
Brad Taylor: (12:48)
So Shelly, I, I completely agree that prayer is more for our benefit or to change us. But I also think there’s the, um, the, the fundamental truth of God’s character that even though he is unchanging, um, I actually just read an Exodus 32 this morning, um, the, the episode of the golden calf that we’re all very familiar with and the, the interaction that God has with Moses coming out of that incident where God has decided what he’s going to do and it’s not going to be good for the Israelites and Moses. It doesn’t necessarily address prayer. But in Moses conversation with God, the scripture says God changed his mind. It actually says God changed his mind. And I think we ought to just recognize that in our interaction with God and our conversation with God, scripture paints a picture of a God who is moved by us who is not static or distant. You know, not this distant idea, but, but that we can have this interaction with God that that may actually change something. You know, besides just us. I hope it changes us.
Shelly Head: (13:56)
Yeah. Yeah. And it was, I guess in my mind I’m thinking when I say I want this, I want this more like getting too involved in wanting physical. Not that he doesn’t care about those things, but I want a new car. I want to know. But he does care about our lives. He does care about the details. I agree.
(14:14)
He’s more than just our Santa Claus.
Shelly Head: (14:15)
Thank you.
Janet Wende: (14:20)
We are workers together with God. You know, we’re called neighbors with him. And one of the ways that we call labor with God is through prayer that we, Jesus taught the disciples how to pray and he said one of the ways that we see his kingdom common, his will be done is through prayer. And what a privilege that he’s given us his name and he’s given us all of these things and that we can pray the will of God and partner with him and seeing that be done. And I believe the teaches us that, that it’s, it’s men speaking plurally men, women, but mankind who have the authority in the earth. And so God wants to move, but he’s wanting us to partner with him. Um, and that’s why he sent Jesus in the form of me to, to die as a man because man lost dominion. He sent Jesus back to, to gain that dominion, give that back to us and, and said, um, I want you to partner with me and to see my will and my kingdom come and what an honor and what a privilege that we can do that and stand in the gap that we can make a difference. That God’s God’s heart can be turned. It’s good.
Patrick Kamler: (15:32)
We’ve, we’ve, we’ve seen you have teachers bumper stickers. It’s not about religion. It’s about a relationship. You know, we see that maybe we, we’ve said that our ourselves at times, it really, you know, prayer is kinda how we, how we begin to build and develop that relationship. And it’s great. You mentioned the story of Moses and the prayer and God kind of relenting or changing the mindfulness. Right? Do right. It also tells us that God spoke to Moses as a friend. You know, they had that closest and their relationship to where, you know, not that, you know, Moses was giving God ideas on how to run the universe or anything like that. But you could sense that closeness that other people have tried to emulate. The Israelites were intimidated by, you know, God would show up and go, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. You just talk with Moses. We’ll be over here apparently making a cow.
Bill Harris: (16:22)
[inaudible]
Patrick Kamler: (16:22)
You go talk to Moses. That’s okay. So it’s really kind of developing that relationship and, and just kind of the idea that we do pray according to motives that are not pure. I mean, that’s what James says, you, you don’t have, because you don’t ask. And when you asked me, ask with self selfish motive, right? That when you get something, you’ll spend it on whatever you want. So there’s that element of it. And I think, I think you said this also, that when you pray it’s not so much that you change the situation, but that God through your prayers changes you, which I think is very important.
Bill Harris: (16:52)
Yeah. You know, I recall in my days of, Oh my career television news, according to the white house on four or five occasions, and I remember the first time going there, all the hoops you’ve got to jump through to get into the oval office. And when you think about when you’re there in front, in front of that desk, in the oval office, as you were before, the most powerful man in the world, you know, politically speaking, however, you can drop down on your knees and immediately the angels will usher you into the throne room for the immediate audience with the creator of the universe.
Patrick Kamler: (17:34)
It’s profound.
Bill Harris: (17:34)
Quicker than you can even get into the way though. Isn’t that amazing? I mean, the access through prayer is what I’m talking about is remarkable, remarkable, absolutely remarkable. And the fact that he listens,
Patrick Kamler: (17:51)
take a number, Patrick, he’s always responsive. Sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s easier to get into, you know, the throne room of God and speak a prayer than sometimes it is to get into a church. It depends on the situation, you know? So, yeah.
Brad Taylor: (18:07)
You know, Bill, I think one of the things that, um, I think is just a reality for even for us as pastors and certainly for the people who attend our churches. And I imagine for our viewers today is, is just a question of how do you pray, you know, this idea that it’s sometimes it’s hard to figure out how to pray. How do you make this a priority? And, you know, Janet, you referenced the Lord’s prayer. The, the reality that Jesus taught us how to pray. And I think one of the things that, um, that I take comfort in is when I don’t know how to pray. Scripture tells me how, you know, the songs. Tell me how to pray there. There’s a Psalm for everything you’ve been through when you think you’re facing the most difficult thing. There’s a song that, you know, David face, that kind of thing too. And, um, you know, there’s really, there’s a lot of comfort in the idea that, you know, Paul writes prayers in the, at the end of all of his letters that are profound prayers that we can pray and we can feel good that when we’re praying scripture that we’re in harmony with what God wants us to be praying.
Janet Wende: (19:03)
Absolutely.
Bill Harris: (19:05)
Let’s turn our attention to another question that has come in a viewer who said that, um, they saw no reason to invite an unbeliever to church because if the unbeliever is not willing to make a change, why bother to invite them? Uh, is that, well, that may be logical to some people, I guess, but it’s, it’s not,
Shelly Head: (19:28)
sorry, I was just thinking I was not raised in a Christian home. So at the age of 20, it was an Avon lady that invited me to church. And if she had made that choice on my outward appearance, I wouldn’t know Jesus today.
Janet Wende: (19:45)
Wow.
Shelly Head: (19:45)
So always, because we never know what God’s doing in the heart of man. Always, always feel free to invite someone to church because it’s in the church building. Hopefully that we’re going to be seeing the manifestations of God in our lives when we have Spirit filled worship times that unbeliever may not be able to relate to what’s happening, but they’re going to see something happening in that room to other believers and they’re going to, they’re going to be drawn to attention. It’s going to reach into deep places in their soul. So let’s hope if we’re life-giving church where we’re truly walking out the things of the Lord, that person is going to witness the unfolding of the gospel right there in the lives of the people. So yeah, do it.
Patrick Kamler: (20:30)
Yeah. And I think when you, when you make a surface judgment like that, like when you look at someone’s life and you don’t see anything happening in it, and again, I don’t know what particular stats you’re using to, to show that, like what are you looking for that person’s life, you, you run the risk of actually barring that person from getting to know Jesus better because they might be in a position where they want to learn more. You know, they might be curious. They might be seeker-sensitive, you know, I’ve kind of to use that kind of parlance. They might be wanting more, but they might still look a certain way. They might still talk a certain way. And you think this person needs to clean themselves up before they come to church? No. You come to church and that’s where you get cleaned up. And through learning more about Jesus, that’s where you get cleaned up.
Patrick Kamler: (21:15)
I like you. I was not raised in a church, you know, and I was, I was welcomed into a community not knowing anything. Cause if I had to wait to know something before I came to the church, I might still be waiting to go to a church. I don’t know. But this kind of, that idea of no, you invite them wherever they are. You let the work of the Holy Spirit do what the work of the Holy Spirit can do. It’s not on you to clean him up. Right. It’s not on you to figure them out and to make them Holy. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job. He let him do it.
Bill Harris: (21:45)
Yeah. Yeah. Comments. Well, another question that came in and that has to do with how do we in church deal with offenses and the Bible says offenses are going to come. I mean that’s just life. It’s reality. We are all going to be offended in life. But that’s the question of how we deal with the offenses. Uh, and there are all kinds of ways that we deal with offenses aren’t there? Some of them are right, some of them are wrong. And the Bible does give us some, some guidelines about that. For one thing, if I’m offended, I guess I’m not supposed to sit there and just pout and wait for the person who offended me to come to them. The Bible tells me, lay my gift aside and go to them and let them know. I mean, how, how do I deal with offenses and what happens when we fail to deal with them? What happens to us? Any, any,
Brad Taylor: (22:38)
I think the, you know, the, the answer, the simple answer to the question is we ought to deal with them graciously. We ought to keep short accounts and, um, you know, it, I would hope. And, and you know, I run the risk of preaching to myself here, I guess. Yeah, right, right. I mean, I would hope that, um, that in, in just the journey, it would be hard to offend me that, um, and, and that in those moments when I’m offended that we do have the sort of relationship where we can interact and I can say, here’s, here’s kind of what I felt or how I, you know, read that. But, but I just think about the reality that, um, Jesus dealt with our offense very graciously. You know, God continues to pour out grace and forgiveness and, um, our goal as Christians is to become more like him. And so I would hope that we would have a lot of grace and a lot of forgiveness. And, um, I think we ought to take that to a far extent.
Janet Wende: (23:35)
Absolutely. And if we don’t forgive, we’re really the ones that are held captive, you know, that’s, yes, exactly. And, um, you, you’re not harming the other person. You’re actually harming yourself. And to be able to live free and to be able to live whole, you have to be able to live offense free. And uh, so absolutely. And the beautiful thing Jesus said, bring it to me. You know, we can bring it to him. And he, he he he experienced a fence but he didn’t live offended. And so.
Patrick Kamler: (24:09)
Typically when someone offends you, most of the time they’re not meaning to do it. You know, there’s that, there’s been some type of miscommunication. You know, I, I’m director of Royal family kids here in Allen County. When I do trainings every year, one of the things that I do is I ask everyone how many of you are going to camp and you’re planning to offend somebody and there’s a chuckle and no one raises their hands. Yeah. Mostly no one raises their hands, you know. So I say, look, no one is coming to camp to offend you. No one is coming to camp to ruin your week or to give you a bad time or anything like that. So if someone offends you by something they say, and we train this as well as kind of the biblical standard, like go to that person as quickly as you can and say, Hey look what you said offended me. And because no one is here, meaning to offend you, it can be dealt with and it can be, you know, dispatched to move on because if you don’t, there’s bitterness, there’s all this other kind of stuff that comes up. And then before you know, it, relationships had been, it had been irreparably damaged. You have people that don’t want to be a part of anymore. And, and, and honestly, it is hard to go to someone who has offended you and say, here’s what look what you’ve done. You know, I had to do that once on staff when I was at Lima community, I had to go to someone say, Brad, let me tell you, no, he’s getting [inaudible].
Patrick Kamler: (25:25)
But you know that that’s hard at first cause you don’t really know how that’s gonna turn out. But it worked really well. We were able to resolve our issues and move on as friends. But it’s so very important to, to do that and to realize that 99 times out of a hundred, no one is meaning to offend you. And I think, like I said, our previous episodes, sometimes if you’re easily offended, that’s something you need to look at in your own heart. Everything bothers you. If everything is easily getting to you, that’s something that you need to turn inward and go, okay, what’s going on here? Right. Is there something going on?
Janet Wende: (25:54)
And usually it’s, you know, we’re looking at, we’re looking through colored glasses. There’s, there’s, you know, Rose colored or blue colors or we’re looking through or we’re seeing everything through that lens and it’s, yeah.
Brad Taylor: (26:04)
Patrick, I appreciate just the, the idea that most people don’t set out to offend. One of the things that, um, I’m sure all of us see as pastors as we counsel people, um, is, you know, a, a married couple or you know, people in relationship and what to whatever degree, who at some point back in their history, one has offended the other or both have offended and um, you know, to those couples, I try to remind them that, you know, if you could get back to that root cause, you know, that day in all likelihood your spouse didn’t wake up and think, I’m going to, today’s the day I’m going to do all I [inaudible]. I know it’s just not reality and yet, because we don’t deal with it quickly, we tell stories in our own heads. You know, we write a story about how bad this is. And again, we get back to worry and anxiety, you know, kind of stuff. But, but yeah, you know, assume positive intent of the other person, most likely, most likely they did not set out to ruin your day.
Bill Harris: (27:07)
Exactly. Very positive.
Shelly Head: (27:10)
I think you go back to the idea of forgiveness too. You know, Jesus said that if we forgive then he’ll forgive. Yeah. If we don’t forgive, we’re not going to be forgiven and so I think that idea of forgiveness is is the kind of the blueprint that Jesus left for us in relationships because we are going to have disagreements, we are going to offend and we’re going to be offended. It’s part of life. Yeah. But yeah, the going to and having the best feeling of how what that person was thinking in advance is so good. So good
Bill Harris: (27:42)
going to have to end it there and that’s a very good, very positive note to end on. Thank you very much. Listen, you all have contributed so much in the way of content conversation content that I’m sure somebody is going to be blessed by this. We thank you for being with us this weekend for the last week as well. That’s our program for today. We’ll be back again with a brand new panel on next week. Until then, I’m Bill Harris. Have a wonderful day. Bye bye.
Music: (28:18)
[inaudible]
Jennifer Beck: (28:18)
you’ve been watching TV 44 his newest locally produced program Life Questions. Now we’d like your feedback. What did you enjoy about the show and what would you like to say more? Perhaps you have your own question you’d like us to pose to our panel of pastors in a future show. Submit your questions now by email to lifequestions@wtlw.com or call us with your thoughts. We are able to discuss relevant topics with local pastors right here in the TV 44 studio. Thanks to your financial support. Now is an excellent time to make a one time gift to TV 44 or consider becoming a monthly donor. 100% of your donation stays right here at TV 44 and is used to spread the family friendly life changing message of Jesus Christ. Secure donations can be made online at wtlw.com by phone, by mail, or in person. Again, share your questions for consideration for future shows or just contact us with your comments at lifequestions@wtlw.com.